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Hawkey
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: [Pandora Port] Offer Exile for more then one Handheld ? |
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Hio Archraft Studio (or just representive of the team),
I saw your old video on youtube during I watched Trailer for old SNES RPGs and was stunned by your lovely Game "Exile" 
Probably this sounds a little bit weird, but I would be very pleased if you would offer your game (it really looks promising in giving me the feeling of old classic games) on the upcoming handheld "Pandora". Like nearly 99,999999999% of the people on world don't know what the Pandora is and will never know her, too make you one of the 0,0000000000001% here a short introduction of it (don't wonder that I quotate myself):
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Pandora ? Wtf ? The women who opened the black box which brings Demise and Destruction to the world ?
Why would someone play with such a lady ?
Wellt to tell you truth, this is the Pandora:
[Image]
Its the unofficial successor of the well known GP32X (a Handheld Homebrew Device).
Here just a short view of the features this great device will have/support:
- it is the unoffiical succesor of the GP2X, the well known Homebrew Handheld
- it is a Handheld, a mobile universal Linux Device which will have more Power than the PSP or NDS
- it has an ARM Processor with 600 Mhz and an internal Memory of 256 MB
- it supports OpenGL 2.0
- it has a Touchscreen (solution 800x480), a Gamepad with shoulderbuttons, Dual Analog Nubs and a full a full QWERTY Board with 43 keys buttons + a number Keypad
- it has Wifi (802.11b/g) and Bluetooth
- it has 2 slots for SD Cards
- as a Homebrew Device it will mainly be used for Freeware/Homebrew Games or Applications, but there will be too Emulator for SNES, PSX, GBA, N64 and many more old and new Consoles (recent work is a DreamCast Emulation)
- it will be realised in nearly one month (end August/early September) and will cost ~285€
More Infos could you find at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_(console)) or at the official site (http://openpandora.org/) / Forum (http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showforum=61) 
I hope this short Preview will help you understand what my Intention and Motivation for this Project is.
==============================================
Before I answer any questions, here some more Information about the Pandora and my relation to it:
I am just a community member (besides a little Homebrew/Scipting knowledge) who will get a Pandora when it will shipped (which is at the end of the November). It is designed as a mobile Handheld with an open system, therefore I will surely try something to when I got it (so more as a hobby) 
The official developers of the Pandora, those who assemble the whole "technology/hardware things", are EvilDragon (Germany), CraigIX (England), Faith (Turkey) and Michael Weston (USA). They are also the distributors who will sell her, when she is soon finished.
But that doesn't mean we (the community members) are just fans who want that device for playing games or creating our own programs. The Pandora should combine the best things the GP2X has (they were the former distributors of them) and additionaly something that it still missed.
A tool from the community for the community. Because that, since the beginning they asked us what we want the Pandora for: which CPU it should have, which controll elements are more important (touchscreen + QWERTY Board) and which less (3rd/4th shoulder button), which OS should it have (an open Linux system), which kind of multiplayer interaction should be avaible (WiFi and Bluetooth) and last how much
should it cost at most (~ 330$ / 250 €).
Moreover they tell/told us nearly all steps from the planning (Februar 2007) through the production (next week will start the "mass production"). Therefore, although I am not a distributor (I will get mine from EvilDragon and he said he would be very pleased if some commercial would support "his child"), I can answer a few questions
Before I answer the questions I should mention again that the Pandora is surely more powerfull then the DS or the PSP
(see this pages for a detailed comparison:
- site #1 = http://docs.google.com/View?docid=df9b28k5_14pxkbrtcv
- site #2 = http://docs.google.com/View?docid=df9b28k5_17fw5b27fw),
but on the other side it is not something so popular like them. It will be an Indie console, which will (at least at the beginning) just be known by insiders, people who are interessted in the Indie scene and who thinks a good game/fun is more important than a trade name. This usefull/capable Handheld device is developed by 4 guys and it will be really hard to see them besides Sony and Nintendo (I am sure you can imagine the comparison of your company and EA/Blizzard/Ubisoft).
> How many units are you planning to ship on release?
=> Actualy there are just 100 Pandoras on tour right now. But these aren't realy the finish product. They are "dev boards" (MK0), send to developer who set libarys, drivers, basic programs, the operationsystem and menüs. So they work, that the final Product (MK2) will have no error/mistakes and a fluently using can be guaranted.
These MK1 Boards will be produced at first (when it will released) in the amount of 4000. They were all sold (former planned was a production of 3000), in the next wave will be produced 6000. After that the distributors will countinue producing 6000, in addition they will sell the handhelds then also in some technique stores (perhaps Media Markt & Saturn say you something). But this is just after a time, cause they will sell them just directly if everyone, even kids who just want to put a catridge in it and play a game (NDS/PSP owner), can handle the system. This will happen, but not at the beginning (ED said they don't have to worry, cause this kind of easy storage system is allready planned).
> How are your planning to distribute the games? Is it every man for
> himself or are you planning to have some kind of centralized digital
> distribution?
=> For the Freeware (so Hombrewgames/-applikations) there will be an official database like for the GP2X
(it is allready online, here you can see it: http://archive.openpandora.org/cgi-bin/cfiles.cgi).
I am sure you can upload your stuff there too, but I guess you wont get any money this way (or perhaps EvilDragon, who manage the database, can give you a private part which needs a passwort that you can sell). Instead of that you could just upload it where you want and then send your customers the link.
The Pandora doesn't have any specifical "memory stick" or "catridge" (nether a copright protected CD). It just use normal USB Stick and SD Cards, which everyone should have nowaday. So a huge project (got some 32 GB Card) shouldn't be the problem ^^
The User/Gamer can download your games and install/unpack them at the Stick/Card. As I allready said above, in the beginning the Pandora will not have an easy storage system, which allows to just read one file (nevermind whether .zip/.rar/.bat/.tar/.exe). It will be nessasary to unpack/install the Game in a Folder, so the system can open it.
After that you just have to put the Card/Stick in the slot (there 2 Card and 2 USB slots) and you can choose to play the game or run the programm.
> What are the commercial prospects? Do you have any estimates
> regarding how much of the software that will be free and how much
> that will be charged for?
=> To tell you the truth, I think it will be similar to the unofficial Ancestor
(the GP2X): There were nearly 95% of the games published as Freeware (forget the 40% Roms of them, which are played with an emulator). So just 5% earned money with their Projects (it's sad that not more companys came and published something for it). Thats not much, but therefore it is less rivalry and they dont have to split it
(Perhaps I should mention that the GP2X were officialy sold more then 50.000 times. Thats not much compare to the Gameboy Advance, but it should be enough for a middle company to make some profit (even if just every 3. gamer would want the game). Moreover: many of the Pandora users, at least these who try to create something by themself, will know how difficult it is to design a Game. Thats why most of them will be probably willing to pay money if your games will make fun and considered to be worthy (and what I saw from Exile it will ^^))
A Good thing for developing for the Pandora is, you dont need something special. Just your home PC, a unit (guess you can create something without one, but then you can't test the handling), an USB Stick/SD Card and inspiration/motivation (+ knowledge of a program language). Moreover you dont need to buy any licence (like for a XBOX360 or Wii games or even for the DS Deloper Kit), cause the device should encourage everyone to be an active part of gaming and create something by himself.
A good example for a company who created a game for the the GP2X can you find here:
=> http://www.wind-water.net/ (it's a nice puzzle game with charming old school graphic)
It was a great succes (the Price were about 20$/15€), so that they make nowaday a portation with some extras at the dreamcast (and hopefully at the Pandora too ).
> Who is funding the development of the platform?
=> Like I said: EvilDragon, CraigIX, Faith and Michael Weston. When you buy a device they got some small credit (realy bare calculated) and the rest are production costs/server cost (with the future easy storage system it is planned to use the WiFi and the Database directly, so you can load a game at your Pandora and play it instantly when you wait somewhere). Furthermore you got the option to pay 20$/12,5€ more to an "Development fond", with which important/awesome Freeware games/applications get some reward (every month will be different contests and annoucements, therefore I bought 2 times the fond, so I can vote 2 times for a project). However, your Forum account get for the payement the access to a Special "Beta-Testing-or-Demo-Board" to see something before it is published.
Hopefully I could help you (and like the Pandora same as I)
For more Questions I recommend you the official Wiki and Forum (in which all 4 Developers are willing to answer specific technical questions):
=> official wiki/ FAQ site= *click*
=> official Forum = *click*
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I hope you are interested and willing to make a port (it should be easy if it is written in a common program language as c/c++/python/basic etc.), so that we can buy and play it on the pandora too
Greetings, Hawkey
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Addition:
1.) Since you said that the game might be playbale at the handheld Nintendo DS, a even (technical) better Device (f.e. the different control elements beside the touchscreen) shouldn't stop it ^^ (surely just later when its done or you progress supports a portation)
If you would need some help (by optimizing the controling or portating at the system) Pandora fans (including me) would be pleased to help you
So if you want, we you could use some pandoras to compile the game as somekind of beta test and then you sell it through the internet 
[perhaps you shouldn't forget, that this way of selling the game (through the internet) will not cause any trouble for you as long you got a finish source code ready to port and at least you got some direct extra money]
2.) The following sentences are in german, because I am from germany and I read that one of your team member comes from germany too 
Wenn ihr wie gesagt interessiert seid, aber vielleicht mehr Informationen bräuchtet, kann ich euch auch das offizielle deutsche Forum empfehlen (ED ist dort Admin), wo wir im Vergleich zum internationalen Forum alles etwas überschaulicher halten 
=> deutsches Forum = *click*
Zudem haben wir bereits einige Zusagen für kommerzielle Spieleportierungen, ihr wäret also nicht alleine
Zumal ihr wie gesagt ja nichts verliert, wenn ihr einfach einen weiteren Vertriebsweg nutzt, der nichtmal zusätzliche Materialkosten in Anspruch nimmt, sondern nur die Bereitschafft verlangt, etwas zur Verfügung zu stellen. Schließlich würden wir uns alle freuen, neben einfachen Homebrewspielen und bekannten Klassikern (ich sage nur SNES Terranigma/BoF) auch professionelle neue Spiele mit old School Charme auf unserer kleinen "Alleskönnerin" zuspielen |
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ManDarK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Aa far as I know it is not Studio Archcraft's decision if the game will be ported to other platforms. It's the publisher's (Graffiti Entertainment) decision. |
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Hello Hello
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Like ManDarK said, this is probably something you should ask the publisher about. |
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Kinta
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: [Pandora Port] Offer Exile for more then one Handheld ? |
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| Hawkey wrote: | | Like nearly 99,999999999% of the people on world don't know what the Pandora is and will never know her |
I think this piece of information is kinda counterproductive to support your request.
Kinta |
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Hawkey
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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@Kinta: Yeah, I know this doesn't sound realy positive, but I thought it would be fair to play with open hands. The Pandora is mostly unknown and probably it will be for common DS/PSP customers. Thats why I thought it wouldn't be a problem if they are interested in a port, cause the Studio Archcraft team wouldn't break any existing contract with their DS Publisher and getting a little extra money (just let it be 3000x20$ = 60.000$ for the start) wouldn't hurt anybody
Are you sure about this ? (then Bob here did the right decision, not to forget that he promised to make a port )
I thought that Graffiti is just the publisher for the distribution on Nintendo DS (so he managed the whole copy on a catridge thing and just pay a small amount of the income to the developer). Does they really bought all licences for the game (not just the way of "hardware"-selling, but of the virtual way through the internet "software"-selling too; all their "supported" games were just shipped in a real medium like a cd or cassette, selling the access for a downloadlink would be something totally different [okay and then to put the files on a sd card or usb stick; but its work for the user/gamer not yours]) ? You can't decide anything anymore or change something (they own the game) ? If it is just the DS Version, it wouldn't be a trouble, since the pandora had no double Screen and it needed a little modifying for that aspect at least
So if you have still the source code uncompiled at the DS Developer Kit, it could be used for this purpose. It would be great if some guys from Archcraft could comment this or at least recommend me some men from graffity, to get in contact with them (but just if this is really necessary: I dont like companies who just sell the work of small creators and then get most of the profit, just because the studios can't distribute their games without help by themselves)
[Edit]
Oh yes I forgot. Not just that I think this game is yours (so still your story, artworks, graphics, sounds, program code etc.), I also found that changing the name from "Project Exile" to "Black Sigil" doesn't really fit to that project. So whats about changing it ?
I wouldn't regret if "Black Sigil" will not be portet, but the original "Project Exile" should be possible nor |
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ManDarK
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Dehaut wrote: | | ManDarK wrote: |
Will you guys also release the GBA version or only the NDS version?
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That would probably be the publisher's decision. If it comes down to us, we'll have to discuss it a lot. |
This was a while ago. Studio Archcraft already had the GBA version as good as done. But it's in the publisher's hand. They have the rights for the game.
Source: http://www.yabbers.com/studioarchcraft/viewtopic.php?t=17&mforum=studioarchcraft
| Hawkey wrote: | I also found that changing the name from "Project Exile" to "Black Sigil" doesn't really fit to that project. So whats about changing it ?
I wouldn't regret if "Black Sigil" will not be portet, but the original "Project Exile" should be possible nor |
It was the publisher's idea to change the name to "Black Sigil". "Project Exile" was just a temporary name.
Source: http://www.yabbers.com/studioarchcraft/viewtopic.php?t=72&mforum=studioarchcraft |
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Hawkey
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Sure but I read:
| Quote: | | "That would probably be the publisher's decision. If it comes down to us, we'll have to discuss it a lot. |
So it seems (they used "probably" and not "have to") that they still have some rights about the game (and they could use them and discuss about this request)
This rights could include, giving licences or selling the game to other publisher/consoles....
(Furthermore: next time you shouldn't forget to mention that your source/reference is almost 2 years old. To that time the guys from Archcraft didn't got a publisher and haven't made contact with Graffiti Entertaiment : )
To the name thing: Yes I followed the discussion in the old threads, but that's what I want to say. Graffiti just decided to change the name and with it perhaps a few other things (f.e. the dialogs shouldn't use words which are inappropriate for children). So "Black Sigil: Blade of the Exile" is the game they publish and distribute. If Archcraft would decide to publish a modified source code (named like the former temporary GBA title "Project Exile") and sell it through the worldwide web, they wouldn't hurt any contract (and I like the old name even more)
Moreover you missunderstood a thing: your old question was about releasing a GBA version, beside the NDS. This is something total different, because the "hadware"-selling is perhaps bounded at Graffiti Entertaiment. They have to decide if they are willing to pay more money for the catridges copy process, just to get a few extra bucks. My intention was the pure "software"-selling over the internet, with no more work/costs for the publisher nether the developer
We could even offer you to buy only the source code/licence for the pandora, without any support or extra stuff from you. This way we would compile the game for the Pandora by ourselves (we got the guys with the knowledge), so you wouldn't sell a real game which runs automaticly on another system and hurt a contract in that way (=> okay a documentation or something like that would be great, but if not we would try the "Error&Fail" method)
The only thing at that option is: we can't pay you to much for your work (thought at 30.000$), cause its just the source code and we will do the whole compatibiliy and distributing thing. I know its hard to create a game and so (don't forget that it really reminds me on my old days), but we could just collect the money by the other community members to pay that bill. So we have to get their 10-20$ before we even worked with the code, we could just show them the trailer and promise them, that it will be a nice game
Otherwise the old offer of just compiling the source code of the game for the pandora still stays. So you could send us just the source code (sure just to a few, so that nobody abuse this trust), we compile it for the pandora at the pandora, and then we send you the full working files back. Then you could just sell the pandora version of the game [but than we got a request: please don't forget that it will be an open handheld, so don't set the price too high for "just" destributing this game on this new kind of plattform, since your main payment will you get from graffiti, as we will compile it for you. Almost every pandora user should be able to get the game, so a price not above 10$ should still be fine as an extra income // including the second batch in january 2009 this were approximately: 6.000x10$ = 60.000$], the way you like it (not to forget that it have to be on the internet or you would hurt the "hardware"-selling commitment ) |
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Hello Hello
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Hawkey wrote: | Sure but I read:
| Quote: | | "That would probably be the publisher's decision. If it comes down to us, we'll have to discuss it a lot. |
So it seems (they used "probably" and not "have to") that they still have some rights about the game (and they could use them and discuss about this request)
This rights could include, giving licences or selling the game to other publisher/consoles.... |
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it doesn't include. I'm fairly sure that when you sign on with a publisher, they get the distribution rights to the game. Kind of like how Nintendo used its position as publisher to keep Goldeneye 007 off of the Xbox 360. With that said, if you wanted to make a legitimate plea to Studio Archcraft, you should send a business letter to them or something to that affect. You're probably not going to make a lot of progress using an Internet message board. |
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Hawkey
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Why wouldn't I get in contact or "make a lot of progress" with the guys of Archcraft, when I am using their forum Oo
Sorry, I just know Indie developer who are interested in their works and therefore in the future customer of their products (its clear that this doesn't include huge boards of big companies). Thats why I thought I should try my best at the official forum of the game first, instead of writing an formal E-Mail to everyone of the team. While I am using this kind of discussion palttform, the developer could make up their own mind, see the positive and the negative aspects; the hopes and the fears of the gamers. Moreover they could comment the idea and see what other user think about it (=> to me it seems like you don't like it, to share the pleasure of playing the game on another console and allow the guys of Archcraft to earn a little extra money  )...
To your refer: I read the words "Nintendo" and "XBOX360", which stands for big companies who doesn't really care about the customers or the products (okay Nintendo does a little) as along as they are selling the titles and get profit. Graffiti and Archraft are Independet and therefore not such big money oriantated cormorants (sure they need and get, but I think they want more than just that: happy gamers). They thought about both interest (creating a great game, leant to the old classic SNES RPGs, which will selling itselfs) and when someone of them can make extra money without any additional work, why should one of them deny it for the other 
I just can compare it with the lovely game of Bob, cause it is an DS Game too and he will make a port. He said that he just sign a contract which let him handle his whole thing, so that he can stil decide about the name and the way of distribution
Nevertheless: Since it seems that nobody from the fans know which case it is, we have to wait until ether some guys of Graffiti or Archcraft give us a statement here
[€dit]
Oh, I forgot to ask (every who know a concrete answer would be pleased to do it): Is there a reason that the former "50 hour" RPG will now be just a "30 hour" ? I still think that this is really a lot compared to other retail games, but I fear that the main storyline could be damaged under the circumstance of publishing it on the DS with Graffitis help (perhaps they want to see if its selling good, so they spare material for a sequel ?). Hopefully my concerns are crap/wasted and the plot is fully implented (at least that just a few side quests aren't included, so you could finally finish your work of 6 years) and we can all enjoy this nice game to the end without a cliff hanger |
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harvey
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: True Colors |
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Even though you didn't highlight your agenda until your final edit (Oh, I forgot to ask) Hawkey, it was obvious from the start.
I would venture a guess that your "concerns" are "crap/wasted"
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bendeboy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree, pleas at making black sigil for the pandora are asking to get pirated from the get go. As i'm very interested in the future of the pandora... i would have to disagree simply as a follower of the game to the potential of piracy to a low-key hardware which most no little of. I give credit to the developers of this nice looking machine, but for graffiti, i think it's an obvious red flag. |
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Hawkey
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bendeboy wrote: | | I agree, pleas at making black sigil for the pandora are asking to get pirated from the get go. As i'm very interested in the future of the pandora... i would have to disagree simply as a follower of the game to the potential of piracy to a low-key hardware which most no little of. I give credit to the developers of this nice looking machine, but for graffiti, i think it's an obvious red flag. |
Why should a port of "Black Sigil" for the Pandora, the same as if you pirate it ? I just suggest that the developer (if they relaxed/got their time after the DS release) could try an additional way of distribution. Nobody said that they have to sell it digital without an DRM, I just want show them, that nowadays are more ways than just a physical catridge/CD (besides I prefer the "real" method, but sometimes a new invention could replaced an older one [DSi -> got an own online Shop for Games/direct downloadable])
Moreover: If an SD Card/USB Stick with an voluntary internal copy protection hasn't the same "security-level" as an NDS catridge that could be easily readed and saved as an ROM file (=> illegal and damaging the developer !), I don't know
Yeah as you mentioned the "low-key hardware" you got the point. The Pandora has no big company or commercial support, so it doesn't attract that amount of people like the DS or PSP do. It lives from the homebrew games/applications of free hobby developer.
I dont have the intention to change that, but like EvilDragon said, it's an important step to cooperate with other independent projects (since both got an advantage => On the one hand it makes the handheld more attractive for some customers and on the other hand, more gamers could support the different projects, through buying them), wether they do a fulltime job or just private |
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OrR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| bendeboy wrote: | | I agree, pleas at making black sigil for the pandora are asking to get pirated from the get go. As i'm very interested in the future of the pandora... i would have to disagree simply as a follower of the game to the potential of piracy to a low-key hardware which most no little of. I give credit to the developers of this nice looking machine, but for graffiti, i think it's an obvious red flag. |
That is simply bullshit. Hardcore DS gamers, which is exactly the market an old school RPG is going for, tend to have a flashcard for very easy piracy these days. It's a must have even if your goal isn't stealing games because there is so much awesome homebrew software available (from movie players to motion controlled games) and it's much more convenient to carry around your games collection on one microSD card than to take dozens of cartridges with you. Unfortunately, once you have the thing, buying games becomes much harder to justify to yourself...
In theory (and probably practice), piracy on the Pandora will be even easier. However, the device is supported by a community of passionate gamers and developers who condemn piracy. People will probably be banned quickly for even mentioning it on the main community forums and commercial games have been supported very well by the community in the past. In tightly knit communities like this people appreciate that their money will go directly to the developers and that paying for a game means encouraging the developer to make more of the same.
About what Graffiti Entertainment get to decide and what they don't: That depends on how crappy the agreement that Studio Archcraft signed with them is. SA have been developing most of the game on their own in advance so they should have been able to keep most of their rights. I seriously hope that they didn't hand over complete control of the franchise to the publisher. Unfortunately this has been common practice in the games industry. It only makes sense when the publisher finances development of a game in advance, though. SA developed their game pretty much independently so they should have taken great care to keep their rights. |
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